dtlb26
Sophomore Author
Omaha
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2010 11:39:33 PM
"During the winter time here in Michigan, I tend to run a little higher mix of gasoline in my car's engine."
Winter blend gasoline adds butane to mix to target a set tank RVP. INHO, ethanol in mix is better as it will continue to clean system and be cheaper in the long run.
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aRBy
Veteran Author
Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2010 9:45:20 PM
One of the reasons Americans like the 15% gasoline mixture is because it helps engine starting in cold weather climates. Other than that, there's no reason we can't run on 100% ethanol.
During the winter time here in Michigan, I tend to run a little higher mix of gasoline in my car's engine.
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Pbandgrassroots
Champion Author
Wisconsin
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Message Posted: Jun 30, 2010 8:17:50 AM
It would be nice if the consumer had more options in percent of ethanol available in more areas
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dunebuggy1
All-Star Author
British Columbia
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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2010 5:41:08 AM
Read a news article once in a while, the stuff is shgarbageit
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gougedQC
Champion Author
Montreal
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Message Posted: Jun 4, 2010 8:00:40 AM
there will never be 100% ethanol.. the reason its 15$ real gas, is to ensure that its impossible to use as drinking alchohol.....
which I might add is a far better use for it, and jack daniels does it without massive gov't subsidies of our hard earned tax dollars to support a private industry..
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E-Squirrel
Champion Author
Orange County
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Message Posted: Jun 2, 2010 2:24:24 PM
willix asked:
"Why not just make this alternate fuel ethanol 100% for cars? The same reason it shouldn't be 10% ethanol?"
Mostly because "legacy vehicles", already on the road can't really use it.
100% hydrous ethanol would be a perhaps better choice if it were available in sufficient quantity. Its easier to ship, and used in a vehicle designed exclusively for it, might present fewer problems than blended fuel.
The legacy vehicle fleet makes this impractical, however....
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: May 30, 2010 4:07:34 PM
gougedQC says "he also mentions a completely valid statement that H_D issued a recall because ethanol was damaging parts of the bikes"
So, you should be able to provide a non-blog link that provides details of this alleged recall.
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papo106
Rookie Author
Raleigh
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Message Posted: May 30, 2010 9:27:17 AM
111111111111111111111111111111111111111
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gougedQC
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Montreal
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Message Posted: May 30, 2010 7:22:39 AM
typical response from an ethanol zealot- denigrating a valid post and a personal attack on me.
This guy is relating his PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that ehtanol fuel in his harley "runs like shit"
he also mentions a completely valid statement that H_D issued a recall because ethanol was damaging parts of the bikes
you can name call, denigrate, be snide, be rude, and all the other things you want, but the recall due to ethanol damage is there, and the personal experience is there. But of course some can't stand any facts that get in the way of their ethanol diety, and -or their ethanol investment portfolio
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: May 30, 2010 7:00:04 AM
gougedQC is now posting blogs from "a guy named Dave".
It's as credible as most of his other posts.
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gougedQC
Champion Author
Montreal
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Message Posted: May 30, 2010 6:24:46 AM
From a Harley Davidson discussion forum, posted by a guy named Dave:
"Everything said so far, regarding Ethanol, is correct. It is an oxegenator that was designed/added to help reduce petroleum consumtion and emissions, without thinking of long term issues. It takes more ethanol to produce the same amount of energy release results as gasoline. Using 10% ethanol reduces fuel mileage and in my Evo, runs like shit. I buy Shell since they advertize "No Ethanol" and after I tested it, it seems to stand true. (Graduated cylinder test I did a post on earlier...)
Harley is aware of the issues of Eathnol and has been for years. HD had a recall M-1063A, which effected all 1994 FLT/FLHT models as well as carbrbed 1995-1997 FLT/FLHT, Softail, Dyna an sporties using vacuum operated gas petcock/fuel valves pt# 61338-94, 61338-94A and 62169-95. The recall did not effect EFI bikes, rather only carbed bikes through Septemer of 1996.
In this recall, the natural rubber slide diaphram, petcock diaphram and needle were replaced with a Viton material and not natural rubber, which Ethanol will damage.
What the makers of Ethanol didn't count on, was the effects of it's Hygroscopic properties. Anyone that deals in Alcohol race cars knows that the fuel cell has to be either plastic or stainless, because Ethanol is corrosive. Regular untreated steel will be damaged.
As well.....Ethanol in your steel fuel tanks, now has different Ph ratings, which is showing up on a few newer cars, resulting in premature fuel sending unit failures due to the added moisture in the tanks. This is due to it being Hygroscopic and absorbing moisture from surrounding air.
What this means to you, is if storing your bike for winter, treat the gasoline with a good stabilizer, such as Sta-bil or Seafoam, and keep the tank filed. The less airspace in the tank the better, to reduce the abilty for condensation and more moisture absorption, resulting in less corrosion and a lower Ph level.
Because it's an oxidizer, it burns hotter. It also leaves corrosive deposits behind.
My neighbor services filling stations all up and down the east coast, testing tanks, certifying systems, etc. In his last meeting with the surrounding companies, it's his belief that within the next 10 years, you'll see the phase-out of Ethanol, due to it also damaging equipment,
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pulpwood
Champion Author
Mississippi
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Message Posted: May 21, 2010 7:36:06 AM
Brazil sells 100 percent ethanol, and both GM and Ford make vehicles there that run fine on it!
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pgerassi
Champion Author
Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2010 7:43:11 PM
Harley Davidson was contracted by the EPA to test ethanol based RFG and found zero problems in over 12,600 miles using 6 worker owned motorcycles. They also tested all of their parts in ethanol based RFG and found no problems. Ditto for Mercury Marine. They used ethanol based RFG in outboards from 40 to 200HP and found no problems either even when using summer blends in late fall. Briggs and Stratton did the same for their small engines. Again no problems found.
Real world testing beats supposition and rumor every time.
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2010 8:05:05 AM
Diesel figured out how to handle cold weather starts over 100 years ago.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to start a car on E100 even in cold weather.
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aRBy
Veteran Author
Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2010 7:56:13 AM
100% ethanol is fine except it presents problems for cold-weather starting. That's one of the bigger reasons Americans add a 15% gasoline component. In warm weather climates like Brazil, 100% ethanol works fine.
I see no reason for a one-size-fits-all fuel for automotive propulsion. If we make every car flex-fuel, ethanol AND methanol, we can CHOOSE whatever mixture percentages we want.
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GasMiserAZ
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Phoenix
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2010 1:06:09 AM
It should be 0% ethanol.
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furball64801
Champion Author
Missouri
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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2010 6:06:46 PM
Funny my rider has a plastic tank and has run on ethanol for over 6 yrs. Last year ran a very high content of ethanol in the mower with 0 issues. I let pure ethanol sit in plastic gas cans for months on end, there is no damage and no leaks at all. The rubber hoses on the mower are fine I just dont see any issues people must have junk because i never have had one issue in over 30 yrs of ethanol use.
[Edited by: furball64801 at 4/27/2010 7:09:09 PM EST]
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klr650guy
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British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2010 10:13:57 AM
but not in as high of concentrations as now.
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2010 3:16:37 AM
"But the same plastics were used for many years, never was an issue."
Wait a minute. Ethanol has been around for over 30 years down here in the states, and about 25 years in BC. If Ducati cannot figure out how to add a tank that is compatible, then maybe they should go out of business!
My 13 year old ride mower has a plastic tank in it that has worked just fine with ethanol blends.
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pgerassi
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Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2010 10:03:22 PM
It is better to have E96 because it is relatively easy to reduce water content to below 4%. Going futher requires a much more energy intensive operation (micro filtration). Most cars could run on E96 (96% ethanol, 3.5% water and 0.5% denaturing agent (typically either methanol or gasoline)) and it would be much cheaper to produce than the current E99.5.
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tireman1988
Rookie Author
Nashville
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2010 4:52:56 PM
Is CoOp the only 100% Gas in Murfreesboro?
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tireman1988
Rookie Author
Nashville
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2010 8:08:48 AM
Par4 Gas Station Hwy. 55 Manchester Tn. 100% Gasoline $2.71 Saturday.
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dtlb26
Sophomore Author
Omaha
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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2010 7:59:41 PM
rather than argue, why not do a web search for ethanol compatibility with plastic! :) Or would you like me to post a table?
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pgerassi
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Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2010 3:10:53 PM
Nor is it hard to find plastics that are compatible with both gasoline and ethanol. If those that spec materials for Ducati can't do a simple lookup, then they should be fired.
Ford for example uses the exact same tank for their gasoline only model F150s and their flex fuel versions which can use E100 (99.5% actual). So tank material selection can't be that hard.
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Shockjock1961
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2010 2:13:30 PM
"You have me beat hands down when it comes to spinning"
So what exactly is erroneous in these post SS?
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2010 12:35:59 PM
Shockjock1961, showing his mastery of the spin method says ""Plastic" tanks in motorcycles are more then likely fiberglass. Either you didn't know that, or you are simply trying to use disinformation to cloud and spin the issue..."
AND
"I have no idea if plastic tanks are ruined by ethanol or not, sine I've never seen it, although if you claim you've witnessed damage, I have no reason what so ever to doubt you. I have, however, seen fiberglass tanks break down when in contact with ethanol, which was the fact I was trying to convey..."
AND
"Perhaps, SS, instead of using your usual misinformation campaign to try and score points, you should research to see if the plastic used in liquor bottles is the same type of plastic used in motorcycle gas tanks. After all there are MANY different types of plastic, some of which may be far more sensitive to ethanol then others...."
You have me beat hands down when it comes to spinning!
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klr650guy
Champion Author
British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2010 11:23:10 AM
But the same plastics were used for many years, never was an issue.
Then along came this crap called ethanol, and thats when the issues arrived.
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goldseeker
Champion Author
West Virginia
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2010 5:48:01 AM
"call Ducati, and ask them about all the ruined PLASTIC gas tanks on their bikes."
This is a moot issue. The reason is simple. If Ducati does not know which plastics are compatible with ethanol then that is their fault.
It is a well known fact that many components of gasoline are not necessarily compatible with some plastics. The key word is some. It is not hard to find plastics that is compatible with aromatic gasoline blends, nor is it hard to find plastics compatible with ethanol.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 10:05:03 PM
"He said his gas tank was made of plastic."
Perhaps, SS, instead of using your usual misinformation campaign to try and score points, you should research to see if the plastic used in liquor bottles is the same type of plastic used in motorcycle gas tanks. After all there are MANY different types of plastic, some of which may be far more sensitive to ethanol then others....
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 10:01:03 PM
"shock, call Ducati, and ask them about all the ruined PLASTIC gas tanks on their bikes."
I have no idea if plastic tanks are ruined by ethanol or not, sine I've never seen it, although if you claim you've witnessed damage, I have no reason what so ever to doubt you. I have, however, seen fiberglass tanks break down when in contact with ethanol, which was the fact I was trying to convey...
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klr650guy
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British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 9:48:48 PM
shock, call Ducati, and ask them about all the ruined PLASTIC gas tanks on their bikes.
In countries with ethanol, many ruined tanks.
In countries without ethanol in the gas, the tanks are all fine.
So after you call them , post what they tell you here.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 9:30:21 PM
"Plastic" tanks in motorcycles are more then likely fiberglass. Either you didn't know that, or you are simply trying to use disinformation to cloud and spin the issue...
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 9:23:03 PM
Shockjock1961 says "I haven't sen many liquor bottles that are made out of fiberglass, have you?"
You must have reading comprehension problems. He said his gas tank was made of plastic.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 7:22:44 PM
"Don't they sell liquor in plastic bottles where you live? Isn't the liquor more than 10%?"
I haven't sen many liquor bottles that are made out of fiberglass, have you?
[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/14/2010 8:23:02 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2010 7:21:21 PM
"Any car older than that should be forced to be altered to current emission and fuel standards"
Just what we need, yet more Federal Government big brother action forcing yet another mandate at the behest of it's overlords and masters the Big Ag and Ethanol producers lobby's, as they attempt to justify further handouts and profiteering derived from the taxpayer as they push a non-fuel that nobody wants...
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aRBy
Veteran Author
Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2010 7:54:33 PM
Willix:
100% ethanol (or methanol) presents problems for cold-weather starting. That's why a 15% gasoline content is desireable here in the United States.
The IRL (Indy Racing League) uses 100% ethanol, but they only race during the warm months. There's a reason for that!
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jhailla
Rookie Author
Los Angeles
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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2010 12:51:08 PM
hmmm..how about using lemon juice..i heard that its possible to use lemon for battery..maybe if someone invent a car using lemon...it will help people to save money for gas and save mother nature.
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pgerassi
Champion Author
Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 10:49:51 PM
If the car or truck that has problems has a model year of 1986 or newer, then you didn't maintain it properly. They had to run on up to E10 by law. Given usual engineering margins thats more like up to E13 to E15 anyway. And you don't save anything by going just to E10, but all the way to pure ethanol as the cost is the same. That is 24 years ago.
Any car older than that should be forced to be altered to current emission and fuel standards as the cost is under $100 (for cars back to 1974 or 36 years ago) which is far less than a new car costs. If they want to keep it as a "stock" antique, they will have to buy special fuel (aviation grade gasoline (100NL) is a good substitute, but it costs $1-2 more a gallon) and a permit to drive it (per event or fewer than say 1,000 miles a year). But some older cars like an old Ford Model T could run on pure ethanol, methanol, gasoline or any blend of them. Those were built over 100 years ago. So having an old car doesn't mean that you will have problems with E15, just a small possibility of it.
[Edited by: pgerassi at 4/11/2010 11:51:17 PM EST]
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dacofa
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Nevada
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 5:26:44 PM
Just a way to make you buy a newer car. This fuel screws up older ones that aren't built for it.
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klr650guy
Champion Author
British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 5:12:38 PM
Never was an issue pre-ethanol days, now the tanks are all F'ed up.
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klr650guy
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British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 5:11:18 PM
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=55155
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klr650guy
Champion Author
British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 5:10:01 PM
Tons of links I could give you to the issues.
If you want to read for about 3 years on the problems ethanol causes, send me your email address, I have tons of good info I can share.
For a brief glimpse, in simple terms of reading try this.
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=84146
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goldseeker
Champion Author
West Virginia
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 3:37:49 AM
Silverstreaker: You are right, ethanol is compatible with most plastics. I have a 5 gallon and 2 1/2 gallon plastic gas can that are both well over 10 years old and neither of them leak.
I have a bottle of vodka here that is plastic. Vodka is 80 proof, which means 40% ethanol. This bottle is several years old and has never leaked a drop.
I am not saying that all plastics are compatible with ethanol, but many are. Polymer chemists are not fools.
Let's take a look at the Chemical compatibility charts. A common plastic is ABS. Ethanol gets a B rating of good. Lets try CPVC. Ethanol B, good again. Now lets try neoprene. Ethanol A, excellent. By the way, neoprene is a polymer that is commonly used in gaskets and seals. How about polypropolyene. Once again, A-excellent. Now polycarbonate and it is B-good again. Just one more, and that would be nylon, which comes in at A-excellent.
Now if you go back and run the same comparison with benzene which is a common component of todays aromatic gasoline blends you will find a startling difference. With a polycarbonate benzene is rated as D-severe effect. Polypropylene also shows a severe effect. Now one more with ABS plastic and it too shows a severe effect. Now just to prove that I did not make this up here is a link so you can check it out too.
Cole Palmer chemical compatibility chart.
Dupont has a similar chart.
Duponts chart
The Dupont chart will show similar results.
I do not know what caused those gas tanks to go bad. I can assure you that the owner does not likely know either. Could it have been ethanol? Perhaps. But it is highly likely it was some other component of gasoline. Folks have bought into too much propoganda from the anti-ethanol crowd. Even I once believed that ethanol would have a detrimental effect on natural rubber which is no longer used in todays vehicles. Why did I believe that? Because that was all I was hearing from the uniformed press or mechanics that really didn't know what caused the problem..Mechanics that had bought into the same story. Now that I have checked it out with the real experts at Dupont and Cole-Palmer I find that natural rubber has a good rating with ethanol. Like I said before, polymer chemists are not fools.
I now have a lawnmower that I purchased at Wallyworld 18 years ago. It has an aluminum block and polymer elastomers for gaskets and the diaphram. This will make the 12th summer that I have used ethanol blends in that mower and it runs just fine. Just goes to show that folks are easy to jump on the bandwagon and use ethanol as a scape goat for anything that goes wrong.
[Edited by: goldseeker at 4/11/2010 4:39:27 AM EST]
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2010 12:59:42 AM
klr650guy, I don't know what kind of plastic tanks your motorcycles have, but I have been using a one gallon plastic gas tank for my lawn mower for about 10 years and it has had E10 in it the entire time, except for the winters. It looks exactly the same as the day I bought it, except a bit dirtier.
Don't they sell liquor in plastic bottles where you live? Isn't the liquor more than 10%?
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klr650guy
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British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2010 1:55:21 PM
Silver streaker, you need to do your research.
Even the gas tank on 2 of my motorbikes have gone bad because of ethanol.
they are actually destroyed , due to ethanol is bad for plastic.
One will not even stay on the mounting points any more its so bad.
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2010 10:36:10 AM
klr650guy says "even just a 10% ethanol blend is already ruining gas tanks, and fuel lines, carbs, pumps, injectors etc."
If this is what your class is teaching, I would seriously question the teacher's credentials. Water is what ruins gas tanks. Ethanol keeps the water out of the tanks. Can you name any car manufactured in the past 10 years that is not built to accept 10% ethanol?
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2010 4:30:13 AM
"Why not combine a flexfuel with a hybrid??
all bases covered..... "
It has already been done. Ford has an Escape Flex Fuel Hybrid. I just recently seen one for sale at my local dealers.
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furball64801
Champion Author
Missouri
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2010 7:21:35 PM
Some people read crap and believe it. I have been running a 60% mix of ethanol for over 4 yrs and I have had 0 issues both cars run great. I put fuel in and oil change and rotate the tires thats been it. No other repairs and thats on 60% not on 10% people must have some pretty crappy cars to have problems with 10% ethanol mix.
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Grizzly1505
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2010 11:42:13 AM
Why not combine a flexfuel with a hybrid??
all bases covered.....
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klr650guy
Champion Author
British Columbia
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2010 11:09:42 AM
even just a 10% ethanol blend is already ruining gas tanks, and fuel lines, carbs, pumps, injectors etc.
We need to get rid of ethanol, its horrible stuff.
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