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goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 4:32:16 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Food Price Increase. The real story. Agriculture and Food Policy Center at Texas A&M said, "corn prices have had little to do with raising food costs." "They also said that important food items like bread, eggs, and milk have high prices that are largely unrelated to ethanol, or corn prices, but correspond to fundamental supply/demand relationships in the world." Did you know that the average distance that food travels to the store shelf is 1500 miles. And did you know that corn value of a truckload of cornflakes (4,200 boxes) = $241.40? And the cost to get a truckload of cornflakes to the store shelf is $881.25. Did you know that ethanol production borrows approximately 3 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol? Most of this water is released back into the atmosphere in the form of steam. A typical 40 million gallon per year ethanol plant uses approximately the same amount of water as an 18-hole golf course. By the way, there are 175 ethanol plants in America, and over 8000 golf courses. The ethanol industry is a great investment for the U.S. taxpayer. The VEETC provides blenders with an incentative blend ethanol with gasoline, and ensure market access. Total cost to the taxpayer for 2007 was 3.3 billion dollars. However total benefits include. 4.6 billion tax revenue from the ethanol industry. 8 billion in reduces farm payments. 40 billion plus in consumer savings on gasoline. 47.6 billion contribution from the ethanol industry to the GNP. That comes out with a big plus of 96.9 billion for America.In spite of all the negative comments you hear about ethanol and biofuels, there are plenty of good points that often gets lost in the typical rhetoric coming to you from the press. [Edited by: goldseeker at 2/19/2009 5:34:09 PM EST]

goldseeker

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West Virginia

Posts:19,573
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 4:32:16 PM

Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse

Food Price Increase. The real story.

Agriculture and Food Policy Center at Texas A&M said, "corn prices have had little to do with raising food costs." "They also said that important food items like bread, eggs, and milk have high prices that are largely unrelated to ethanol, or corn prices, but correspond to fundamental supply/demand relationships in the world."

Did you know that the average distance that food travels to the store shelf is 1500 miles. And did you know that corn value of a truckload of cornflakes (4,200 boxes) = $241.40? And the cost to get a truckload of cornflakes to the store shelf is $881.25.

Did you know that ethanol production borrows approximately 3 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol? Most of this water is released back into the atmosphere in the form of steam. A typical 40 million gallon per year ethanol plant uses approximately the same amount of water as an 18-hole golf course. By the way, there are 175 ethanol plants in America, and over 8000 golf courses.

The ethanol industry is a great investment for the U.S. taxpayer.

The VEETC provides blenders with an incentative blend ethanol with gasoline, and ensure market access.

Total cost to the taxpayer for 2007 was 3.3 billion dollars.

However total benefits include.

4.6 billion tax revenue from the ethanol industry.

8 billion in reduces farm payments.

40 billion plus in consumer savings on gasoline.

47.6 billion contribution from the ethanol industry to the GNP.

That comes out with a big plus of 96.9 billion for America.In spite of all the negative comments you hear about ethanol and biofuels, there are plenty of good points that often gets lost in the typical rhetoric coming to you from the press.

[Edited by: goldseeker at 2/19/2009 5:34:09 PM EST]

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2009 11:30:20 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse "In effect, that $1.67 E-85 is actually costing you $2.71. " Pure baloney! Many regular posters that use E85 claim a loss of around 10%. "Why after 30 years can't the Ethanol industry stand on its own 2 feet without taxpayer money?" More baloney. And why after 100 years can't the oil industry stand on its own feet without taxpayer money?
goddessgirl Rookie Author Fort Worth Posts:2 Points:620 Joined:Mar 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2009 1:40:49 PM Ignore goddessgirl Report Abuse My husband has used ethanol before in his truck. While it is true that he has to use more ethonal to get the same milage from his truck that he would get using LESS gasoline - we have also noticed that the truck runs alot smoother on ethanol than on gasoline. The usual hesitation is gone and the truck has more pulling power overall. Is it worth the extra expense? Yes and no... Yes, simply because the truck is so sluggish on gas that it can barely get out of it's own way. (yes, the truck has had a full over haul of the engine and other components) No, because the cost of ethanol is something that we simply cannot afford right now and because it seems like finding a fueling station with ethanol is extremely difficult. So, if we had a fueling station close by - and the economy picked up abit - we might just make the switch... but that comes with another problem - there just aren't enough fueling stations around to keep using ethanol with every fill up... then the questions is... do you just keep using gas because it's so prevalent?
CaptSquid Champion Author Billings Posts:25,673 Points:3,181,940 Joined:Apr 2004	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2009 1:31:59 PM Ignore CaptSquid Report Abuse Don't forget that ethanol yields fewer miles per gallon than does unblended gasoline. You have to use more ethanol to achieve the same results as gasoline. In effect, that $1.67 E-85 is actually costing you $2.71.
Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2009 1:21:45 PM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse goldseeker, You do know that your $1.679 E-85 real cost is more like $2.17 per gallon not counting the lower road tax that is not collected on it at the state level and that the lower tax rate takes money away from the states fund to fix & repair roads and bridges. You pro ethanol people always seem to forget that to get the price of E85 lower then regular gas the government has to pay 50 cents per gallon to the blender, that means the price at the pump is an artificial price to help entice people to buy it. If the government did not give the blender the money to lower the selling price of E85 even fewer people would buy then there is right now do to the 15-25% fuel mileage loss not counting extra cost of shorter oil drain interval from using E85. Why after 30 years can't the Ethanol industry stand on its own 2 feet without taxpayer money? One would think after getting the Government to mandate the use of there product (and now they are trying to force us to use more of there product even though it gives users lower fuel mileage) the Ethanol industry could get by with out the 5+ billion taxpayers dollars it receive every year and that amount does not include any tax breaks they get from state government. BTW if the price of corn goes up to high how much more money will it cost the taxpayers to keep the Ethanol industry in business? [Edited by: Cummins2500 at 3/13/2009 2:22:03 PM EST]
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2009 7:21:31 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse DID YOU KNOW? The average nationwide price for 92 octane premium gasoline is $2.11. And the average nationwide price for 105 octane E85, a superior fuel that will increase horsepower and torque and also promote a cleaner engine is $1.679.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 7, 2009 12:00:05 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse DID YOU KNOW? It takes approx 3 gallons of water to produce a gallon of ethanol. 1 pound of hamburger takes 4 gallons of water. 1 gallon of oil take 41.5 gallons of water. 1 Sunday newspaper takes 280 gallons of water.
ethanolbob All-Star Author Maryland Posts:716 Points:137,325 Joined:Aug 2007	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2009 5:09:03 PM Ignore ethanolbob Report Abuse gasngogogo asked "what are the effects of say 10% ethanol added to fuel?" Well, you might show a slight loss in gas mileage. Studies have shown 1-3%, but then again, many folks have not shown any loss and some show a slight gain. There are a couple of things that are quite evident. Your motor will run cleaner, and you will also help cut our dependence on foreign oil. [Edited by: ethanolbob at 3/4/2009 6:09:41 PM EST]
Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2009 2:03:44 PM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse gasngogogo asked "what are the effects of say 10% ethanol added to fuel?" The answer is you may see a loss in fuel mileage. Depending on the car you can lose between 1 and 5 miles per gallon when using E10 aka 10% Ethanol blended gas. IIRC, If you lose 2 or more mpg when using E10 gas then the ethanol gas needs to be between 10-18 cents cheaper per gallon then regular gas. Example (hope I remember the correct numbers)if your car gets 20 mpg on regular gas then E10 gas has to be about 18 cents cheaper. If your car gets 40 mpg on regular then the Ethanol gas need to be about 10 cents per gallon cheaper for you to break even from the loss in mpg.
gasngogogo Rookie Author Lansing Posts:47 Points:39,160 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2009 12:06:09 PM Ignore gasngogogo Report Abuse what are the effects of say 10% ethanol added to fuel?
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2009 6:47:34 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse No25. Ethanol works just fine. Would you like to race your gas powered car against an ethanol car?
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 2, 2009 7:59:38 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse I don't know why, but I really do get the impression that you have a substantial financial investment in the ethanol industry which would of course be a logical reason for a fanatical effort to promote the stuff.
no25 Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:2,772 Points:769,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 1, 2009 11:10:13 PM Ignore no25 Report Abuse Ethanol will never work.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2009 4:02:44 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Did you know? That as of January 2009 we are poised to produce 10.569 billion gallons of ethanol. This figure does not include those facilities that have been temporarily idled. Did you know that in 2008 alone the U.S. Ethanol industry helped support 494,000 good paying jobs? The combination of spending for annual operations, ethanol transportation and capital spending for new plants under construction added more than $65 billion to the nation’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2008. Additionally, the production of ethanol provided an additional $20 billion for American households in 2008. The combination of increased GDP and higher household income in 2008 attributable to the U.S. ethanol industry generated an estimated $12 billion in federal tax revenue and $9 billion in state and local government tax revenue. Given the shrinking tax base in today’s economy, the ethanol industry’s contribution is a bright spot for federal, state and local coffers. The same cannot be said for the money being spent for the over 10 million barrels of oil that is imported every day. Once that money is gone, it will leave the U.S. tax base forever. The production and use of 9 billion gallons of ethanol in 2008 displaced the need for 321.4 million barrels of oil. It also saved American consumers/ taxpayers $32 billion, an average of more than $87 million a day. [Edited by: goldseeker at 2/23/2009 5:03:53 PM EST]
ekelly7 Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:18,291 Points:3,528,700 Joined:Oct 2001	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2009 9:17:38 AM Ignore ekelly7 Report Abuse hogwash
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 22, 2009 3:46:30 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse I already did check this video out. This is a typcial bogus report perpetuated by the anti-ethanol crowd with a little hype and spin added by the press. Water in your gas will cause your engine to sputter. It matters not that ethanol is in there. It is actually less of a problem with ethanol blends than it is with pure gas. I ought to know, I have been using it for over 20 years.
01DuraMAX Champion Author Tacoma Posts:3,497 Points:720,040 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Feb 22, 2009 2:58:10 PM Ignore 01DuraMAX Report Abuse Check out the latest problem with E10. Here is a news link to KING 5 TV in Seattle where we are mandated by the state to use E10.. Do you like water in your gas??? http://www.king5.com/video/index.html?nvid=334742
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 21, 2009 11:43:00 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Did you know? If the US Ethanol industry were a foreign oil producer, only Canada and Saudia Arabia would supply the US with more gasoline. Once the ethanol companies under construction are complete they will out produce any foreign importer. There is huge ethanol potential for food and fuel. In 2007 13.1 billion bushels of corn was harvested from 86.5 million acres. By 2018 Dupont projects the same acerage will yield 211 bpa which would yield 18.3 billion bushels and have the potential to supply all demands for food, feed, and also produce 24.7 billion gallons of ethanol. By 2030 Monsanto projects the same acerage will yield 300 bpa which would bring a harvest yield of 26 billion bushels that would meet all committments of food, feed and also produce 48.6 billions of ethanol. With the tremendous increase in corn yields and over 1 billion tons of cellulosic biomass in the U.S. the possibilities for ethanol are staggering.
bigisland Rookie Author Virginia Posts:28 Points:11,225 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Feb 21, 2009 8:07:20 PM Ignore bigisland Report Abuse Uthensia Sux. thanks for asking
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 21, 2009 10:58:16 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse And the latest breaking news on the UL ethanol pump issue dated Feb. 20th. UL permits use of gas pumps for 15% ethanol blend. NORTHBROOK, ILLINOIS, U.S. ¾ Underwriters Laboratories (UL), a world leader in independent product safety testing and certification, announced Feb. 19 that it supports Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJs) who decide to permit legacy system dispensers, Listed to UL 87 and currently installed in the market, to be used with fuel blends containing a maximum ethanol content of 15%. UL stresses that existing fuel dispensers certified under UL 87 were for intended use with ethanol blends up to E10, which is the current legal limit for non-flex fuel vehicles in the United States under the federal Clean Air Act. However, data the company has gathered as part of the organization's ongoing research to investigate the impact of using higher ethanol blends in fuel dispensing systems supports that existing dispensers can be used with ethanol blends up to 15%. AHJs are advised to consult with the dispenser manufacturer to confirm that the dispenser is compatible with the fuel to be dispensed.
hobbesnmina2001 Rookie Author Buffalo Posts:59 Points:2,040 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 8:39:31 PM Ignore hobbesnmina2001 Report Abuse Tomix, you must be talking about latent heat of vaporization....I do that for a living so whats your point? Ethanol production provides more energy then it takes to make. Ethanol production is an in between step, it does not take food away or raise food prices. There have been reports and studies on all this, unless of course people just want to sit with their heads in the sand! The link below is just a little info based on factual non biased studies. You can check out how a modern plant like this one conserves energy and water! http://www.wnyenergy.com/index.php?pr=Ethanol_Facts BTW its amazing how people want to measure the cost of ethanol production, but don't ever take into account that crude oil took energy to make too, just because humans did not make it doesn't mean its always free energy.
tomintx All-Star Author Dallas Posts:744 Points:80,235 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 8:17:46 PM Ignore tomintx Report Abuse "Did you know that ethanol production borrows approximately 3 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol? Most of this water is released back into the atmosphere in the form of steam. A typical 40 million gallon per year ethanol plant uses approximately the same amount of water as an 18-hole golf course. By the way, there are 175 ethanol plants in America, and over 8000 golf courses." Funny. Water that is converted to steam is somehow comparable to water used in irrigation of a recreational resource. What is the BTU cost of watering a golf course vs. converting an equivalent amount of water to steam? This conversion of water to steam is a big part of the negative energy equation when it comes to ethanol production. This says nothing of the energy cost of refrigeration of the condensation tower that recovers the ethanol out of the steam stream, etc., etc.
hobbesnmina2001 Rookie Author Buffalo Posts:59 Points:2,040 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 5:54:55 PM Ignore hobbesnmina2001 Report Abuse Thanks Goldseeker, I will try to keep you updated. E85 may not be for everyone, and even though right now the price difference is not much, the price of E85 was $1.00 less last year when gas got to $4.00 a gal!! The fuel demand drop is only temporary due to the economy, its only a question of time and it will go back up again.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 5:26:54 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse hobbes: An interesting post you have there. Keep us informed of your conversions.
hobbesnmina2001 Rookie Author Buffalo Posts:59 Points:2,040 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2009 4:51:46 PM Ignore hobbesnmina2001 Report Abuse Nice post Goldseeker, personally I love E85, I will be racing with it replacing methanol which was better then race gas, but E85 is very cool. I am tuning all my vehicles to be able to run different % blends.